Congestion Control Issues

General discussion about Gargoyle, OpenWrt or anything else even remotely related to the project

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varmint
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:49 am

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by varmint »

Now that I have deleted all my qos rules, what would be the best possible way to setup qos given my requirements i posted above?
As good as the qos articles are please don't link those, I think I have provided all the required information for any experienced user or developer to help me out in a single post instead of sifting through other threads or wikis.
Again, I really appreciate the responses!
TL-WR1043nd v2.1 running Gargoyle v 1.8.0

Volaris
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by Volaris »

Just to check I deleted all the qos I set and only let the default ones stay. Now congestion control seems to actually work, with it updating link limits and link loads fairly quickly.
Woohoo!
I am now on 16mbps connection and with both upload and download qos disabled I get 1.9~2.0 MB/s when downloading ubuntu whereas with it enabled and congestion control in active mode I get 1.7~1.8 MB/s.
It goes to the max link limit I set in download bandwidth which is 18500kbps. With no other traffic shouldn't it be giving the same speed or does simply enabling qos take away some bandwidth?
If you're getting 2.0 MB/s download you might be getting more than the 16mbps you're paying for. This is common with some ISPs. I pay for 10 and get over 12 on my cable connection, for example. What does a speed test with QoS off give you? Because you have ACC/Congestion Control on, you can probably set it safely to 20000 max and it'll determine the appropriate bandwidth limit when you max out your connection. Just don't do this on your upload... you need to set that one slightly below your real limit to be safe.
Now that I have deleted all my qos rules, what would be the best possible way to setup qos given my requirements i posted above?
As good as the qos articles are please don't link those, I think I have provided all the required information for any experienced user or developer to help me out in a single post instead of sifting through other threads or wikis.
Again, I really appreciate the responses!
Everyone has a different approach to QoS, but if you want, give my super simple setup a try. It's port agnostic so no need to worry about setting up special rules for games. It keeps everyone's pings low and equally shares bandwidth between devices. The fast rule is just there to reduce Bufferbloat - what makes your Internet feel slow during times of congestion. We use this setup on our 10-12 mbps line with 3-4 people at the same time and video streaming, online gaming, and web browsing work fine even with torrents running.

Used for both upload/download:
https://snapr.pw/i/f10ea9b702.png
QoS Tip: Don't complicate your QoS settings. Gargoyle evenly splits available bandwidth between active devices as needed. Just delete all your classification rules and leave only one normal service class and you're done. No more arguing over bandwidth.

varmint
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:49 am

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by varmint »

Wow that really is a very simple setup, I'll give your setup a try for a few days.

Also this has been confusing me a bit, is congestion control really very accurate when detecting link limit? I ask this because a few minutes ago it was showing my full download bandwidth now its sitting at half (<7000) but my dsl modem shows it syncing at full speed, so what gives?

What's the best method to tell if the bottleneck is on isp side or the isp is possibly throttling my link?

Really, really appreciate your input on all this.
TL-WR1043nd v2.1 running Gargoyle v 1.8.0

Volaris
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by Volaris »

varmint wrote:Wow that really is a very simple setup, I'll give your setup a try for a few days.

Also this has been confusing me a bit, is congestion control really very accurate when detecting link limit? I ask this because a few minutes ago it was showing my full download bandwidth now its sitting at half (<7000) but my dsl modem shows it syncing at full speed, so what gives?

What's the best method to tell if the bottleneck is on isp side or the isp is possibly throttling my link?

Really, really appreciate your input on all this.
That's quite a steep difference. If you're at 16mb, I'd expect some movement between 14 and 16k, but not half the speed. Is this with minRTT off?

Sometimes the default ISP ping target is unstable for whatever reason. I'd suggest changing your ACC ping target to either Google DNS or OpenDNS (8.8.8.8 or 208.67.222.222) to see if it becomes more stable. On Windows you can use Command Prompt and on Mac you can use Terminal to test yourself. Just open that and type ping 8.8.8.8 and on a new window ping 208.67.222.222 and you can see which has lower and more stable ping out of the two. It's okay if the ping isn't low like your ISP ping target - what matters more for ACC is that it's stable. ACC will adjust if the ping timing is higher.
QoS Tip: Don't complicate your QoS settings. Gargoyle evenly splits available bandwidth between active devices as needed. Just delete all your classification rules and leave only one normal service class and you're done. No more arguing over bandwidth.

Lantis
Moderator
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by Lantis »

Sync speed isn't everything.


Let's say you and I are at a party and everyone in the room is being loud.

We are talking at a rate of 60 words per minute (our sync speed) and all is well. It's noisy but we can still figure it out.
The room gets noisier and we have to slow down a little and shout.
We both still agree that we CAN talk at 60 words per minute, but for clear communication we might do 50.

Suddenly someone tells a cracker of a joke and the whole room bursts into laughter. I have to repeat the last sentence I said to you several times until you understood it.
Suddenly our actual throughout might only be 20 words a minute.


This is the concept of signal to noise ratio and burst interference.
Sync speed means nothing. Refer to it as a theoretical maximum.
http://lantisproject.com/downloads/gargoyle_ispyisail.php for the latest releases
Please be respectful when posting. I do this in my free time on a volunteer basis.

varmint
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:49 am

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by varmint »

@Lantis Excellent analogy that cleared things up quite a bit.

@Volaris Yes that is with minRTT off. I have set google dns as target since its more stable than openDNS and has lower pings 140ms compared to 360ms, though if its giving better results than the isp target is still unclear.

Another thing I have noticed is that congestion control becomes active at roughly ~3000 kbps with a link limit set at ~18000 kbps, shouldn't it be kicking in around 75% or higher bandwidth usage? I have tested this by downloading ubuntu with a download manager with speed limiter to check when CC becomes active.
TL-WR1043nd v2.1 running Gargoyle v 1.8.0

Volaris
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by Volaris »

varmint wrote:@Lantis Excellent analogy that cleared things up quite a bit.

@Volaris Yes that is with minRTT off. I have set google dns as target since its more stable than openDNS and has lower pings 140ms compared to 360ms, though if its giving better results than the isp target is still unclear.

Another thing I have noticed is that congestion control becomes active at roughly ~3000 kbps with a link limit set at ~18000 kbps, shouldn't it be kicking in around 75% or higher bandwidth usage? I have tested this by downloading ubuntu with a download manager with speed limiter to check when CC becomes active.
Sounds right. 3000 is around 15% of 18000. Some people have ISPs that can have wide variation in speeds (wireless ISPs, for example) so ACC kicks in early. As long as congestion isn't there (read: pings stay stable) it shouldn't negatively affect your speed.

Keep us updated on how your ACC and QoS works over the weekend.
QoS Tip: Don't complicate your QoS settings. Gargoyle evenly splits available bandwidth between active devices as needed. Just delete all your classification rules and leave only one normal service class and you're done. No more arguing over bandwidth.

varmint
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:49 am

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by varmint »

Seems to work, though I changed the congestion control ping target to auto and set ping time manually to 100, when its set to auto it works most of the time but sometimes it sets link limit too low like 9000 kbps or even lower.
Also I've noticed that link load never goes above 13000 kbps even when link limit is around 16000 kbps why is that?
Games show higher pings and the jitter problem is still there, most of the time its not too bad but randomly for a couple of seconds increases tremendously, any way to avoid that?
Other than that I'll see how thing go over the coming week.
TL-WR1043nd v2.1 running Gargoyle v 1.8.0

varmint
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:49 am

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by varmint »

OK, so this problem has been driving me nuts:

Whenever I am the only active user, YouTube seems to work fine with download bandwidth usage steadily increasing to ~4000 kbps when viewing 720p video. However, when someone is using Skype or doing something slightly intensive the upload bandwidth becomes (nearly) saturated and I get lots of buffering on 720p videos and checking download qos shows usage not exceeding 3-4000 kbps, clearly download bandwidth is not being utilized at all. Is it possible that the up link being saturated is causing applications like YouTube to not be able to fully utilize my down link?

I have upload rate set at 1094 in modem and total bandwidth set to 1050 in upload qos.
TL-WR1043nd v2.1 running Gargoyle v 1.8.0

Volaris
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Congestion Control Issues

Post by Volaris »

Those symptoms sound exactly like oversaturated upload. AKA your QoS upload bandwidth is set too high, which in turn is breaking your entire QoS. Oversaturated upload = high pings and slow laggy downloads.

Here's how I determine the max upload I can use. Using two devices (such as your laptop and smartphone), I start with my laptop and find a big file. I set that file to upload to a cloud storage (Google Drive, Box, Dropbox, etc)... and make sure you check on QoS upload page on Gargoyle that it's maxing your upload speed. Do a Speedtest on the Speedtest.net app on your smartphone while connected to WiFi. Is the ping higher than usual? If yes, your upload is too high. Decrease your upload bandwidth by 50kbps and try again... and so on. Or you can start with 700kbps and add 50kbps until you reach a speed that causes you ping to go up. Only you know how stable your Internet bandwidth is... if you feel it fluctuates, you may want to decrease your upload bandwidth by 100kbps to give yourself some spare room.

Hope that makes sense. But basically if your upload is set up right, Gargoyle will keep your pings during saturation near the same as when completely unloaded bandwidth. Hope that makes sense. On my 10-12Mbps connection, my pings are always are always 20-25ms whether I'm the only user or there's 6 devices saturating the line with downloads/torrents/video streaming.
QoS Tip: Don't complicate your QoS settings. Gargoyle evenly splits available bandwidth between active devices as needed. Just delete all your classification rules and leave only one normal service class and you're done. No more arguing over bandwidth.

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